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	<title>Comments on: What is &#8220;Church Doctrine&#8221; Good For?</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-is-church-doctrine-good-for/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Grasshopper</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-is-church-doctrine-good-for/#comment-14761</link>
		<dc:creator>Grasshopper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=411#comment-14761</guid>
		<description>It seems that point number 1 may be increasing in importance. Yesterday, in our ward, the bishopric read a letter from the First Presidency reiterating that Church members with doctrinal questions are not to write the General Authorities with questions, but are to consult with their local leaders, who may ask for clarification from General Authorities. This seems to indicate a few things:

- Church doctrine is not clear to many members, or they wouldn&#039;t be writing to the General Authorities
- Church doctrine is not fully understood by local leaders, or they wouldn&#039;t need to ask for clarification from the General Authorities

I think where this letter points is that whatever Church leaders say is Church doctrine is Church doctrine. In which case, it can change from time to time, which seems to undermine points 2 and 3 to some extent. This may say something interesting about the relative importance of maintaining institutional authority compared with other uses for &quot;church doctrine&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that point number 1 may be increasing in importance. Yesterday, in our ward, the bishopric read a letter from the First Presidency reiterating that Church members with doctrinal questions are not to write the General Authorities with questions, but are to consult with their local leaders, who may ask for clarification from General Authorities. This seems to indicate a few things:</p>
<p>- Church doctrine is not clear to many members, or they wouldn&#8217;t be writing to the General Authorities<br />
- Church doctrine is not fully understood by local leaders, or they wouldn&#8217;t need to ask for clarification from the General Authorities</p>
<p>I think where this letter points is that whatever Church leaders say is Church doctrine is Church doctrine. In which case, it can change from time to time, which seems to undermine points 2 and 3 to some extent. This may say something interesting about the relative importance of maintaining institutional authority compared with other uses for &#8220;church doctrine&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: clark goble</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-is-church-doctrine-good-for/#comment-14762</link>
		<dc:creator>clark goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=411#comment-14762</guid>
		<description>I think most church doctrine is fairly clear.  The problem is that there are many, many areas where we have no doctrine.  And that bothers people who can&#039;t handle the fact not everything has been revealed.  

I&#039;d lay a bet that were we to take all these doctrinal questions sent the first presidentency we&#039;d find in 90% of the cases the answer ultimately is &quot;we don&#039;t know.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think most church doctrine is fairly clear.  The problem is that there are many, many areas where we have no doctrine.  And that bothers people who can&#8217;t handle the fact not everything has been revealed.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;d lay a bet that were we to take all these doctrinal questions sent the first presidentency we&#8217;d find in 90% of the cases the answer ultimately is &#8220;we don&#8217;t know.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-is-church-doctrine-good-for/#comment-14763</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=411#comment-14763</guid>
		<description>Nate:  your #3 seems to be looking for some of the possibilities that Richard Bushman laid out in his essay &quot;Faithful History.&quot;  He, however, argues that doctrine would be mediated through the person of the scholar and the scholar&#039;s application of principles to his own behavior before it could be applied to some field of study, or that simply living the doctrine would have the side effect of increasing understanding of any field.  Do you think that&#039;s a workable model, or are you suggesting that principles could be derived from gospel doctrine which could be applied to  areas of study like contract law in some unmediated form?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate:  your #3 seems to be looking for some of the possibilities that Richard Bushman laid out in his essay &#8220;Faithful History.&#8221;  He, however, argues that doctrine would be mediated through the person of the scholar and the scholar&#8217;s application of principles to his own behavior before it could be applied to some field of study, or that simply living the doctrine would have the side effect of increasing understanding of any field.  Do you think that&#8217;s a workable model, or are you suggesting that principles could be derived from gospel doctrine which could be applied to  areas of study like contract law in some unmediated form?</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-is-church-doctrine-good-for/#comment-14764</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=411#comment-14764</guid>
		<description>My problem with Bushman&#039;s approach (and it has been a long time since I read the essay, so I may be misreading him) is that it doesn&#039;t have much methodological bite.  Thus, he thinks that the doctrine mediates itself implicitly into scholarship through the medium of the scholar&#039;s personal life rather than explicitly through self-conscious religious reflection on the methods, assumptions, and justifications for the discipline.

Obviously, I think that some disciplines are more open to the kind of explicit religious reflection that I am interested in than are other disciplines.  Also, for certain disciplines I think that the reflection has to be a very &quot;meta&quot; level before concepts from &quot;church doctrine&quot; have much bite.  The problem is that such meta reflection often implicates the fundamental reasons why a particular discipline is desirable, and practioners of a discipline are often the people LEAST interested in these sorts of questions, precisely because the desirablity of the discipline is the starting place of their work, rather than its goal.  Try getting a scientist, economist, lawyer or literary theorist to talk about the epistemological or normative foundations of what they do and they are likely to get defensive or confused.  &quot;What?!?!  You want to revert to myths about nature rather than real knowledge?  You think poverty is good?  Don&#039;t you know that the rule of law is a great and beautiful thing, or do want the government to exercise arbitrary power?  What kind of philistine are you to question the importance of literature?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My problem with Bushman&#8217;s approach (and it has been a long time since I read the essay, so I may be misreading him) is that it doesn&#8217;t have much methodological bite.  Thus, he thinks that the doctrine mediates itself implicitly into scholarship through the medium of the scholar&#8217;s personal life rather than explicitly through self-conscious religious reflection on the methods, assumptions, and justifications for the discipline.</p>
<p>Obviously, I think that some disciplines are more open to the kind of explicit religious reflection that I am interested in than are other disciplines.  Also, for certain disciplines I think that the reflection has to be a very &#8220;meta&#8221; level before concepts from &#8220;church doctrine&#8221; have much bite.  The problem is that such meta reflection often implicates the fundamental reasons why a particular discipline is desirable, and practioners of a discipline are often the people LEAST interested in these sorts of questions, precisely because the desirablity of the discipline is the starting place of their work, rather than its goal.  Try getting a scientist, economist, lawyer or literary theorist to talk about the epistemological or normative foundations of what they do and they are likely to get defensive or confused.  &#8220;What?!?!  You want to revert to myths about nature rather than real knowledge?  You think poverty is good?  Don&#8217;t you know that the rule of law is a great and beautiful thing, or do want the government to exercise arbitrary power?  What kind of philistine are you to question the importance of literature?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-is-church-doctrine-good-for/#comment-14765</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=411#comment-14765</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve had that discussion--my husband&#039;s in the insurance industry  :&gt;)

I agree that there&#039;s something akin to alchemy in Bushman&#039;s &quot;methodology.&quot;  But I don&#039;t know if that makes it less useful than what you propose.  After all, how useful is it if, say, an insurance underwriter applies your methodology to think through the foundations of his profession.  You don&#039;t have to get too &quot;meta&quot; to realize that insurance is needed only in a fallen world, but what normative implications can one draw from that?  

A tangent:  Do you know Wayne Booth&#039;s _The Company We Keep: An Ethics of Fiction_?  It might be the best attempt I know at applying ethical concepts to some field which might not immediately seem to need them.   And though it&#039;s never explicit, in some ways it&#039;s a thoroughly Mormon book.  It&#039;s also a wise and seriously underappreciated book, in my not-terribly-humble opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve had that discussion&#8211;my husband&#8217;s in the insurance industry  :>)</p>
<p>I agree that there&#8217;s something akin to alchemy in Bushman&#8217;s &#8220;methodology.&#8221;  But I don&#8217;t know if that makes it less useful than what you propose.  After all, how useful is it if, say, an insurance underwriter applies your methodology to think through the foundations of his profession.  You don&#8217;t have to get too &#8220;meta&#8221; to realize that insurance is needed only in a fallen world, but what normative implications can one draw from that?  </p>
<p>A tangent:  Do you know Wayne Booth&#8217;s _The Company We Keep: An Ethics of Fiction_?  It might be the best attempt I know at applying ethical concepts to some field which might not immediately seem to need them.   And though it&#8217;s never explicit, in some ways it&#8217;s a thoroughly Mormon book.  It&#8217;s also a wise and seriously underappreciated book, in my not-terribly-humble opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: William Morris</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-is-church-doctrine-good-for/#comment-14766</link>
		<dc:creator>William Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=411#comment-14766</guid>
		<description>I think Nate makes a good point. I have tried to intersect my interests in literary theory and Mormon theology and have not had much success -- at least not in using an explicit Mormon perspective in reading text by non-Mormons. Of course, most of the best literary criticism, imo, is written by people (not necessarily just academics) who have a very personal, idiosyncratic view of things that may be informed by their ideology, but isn&#039;t a simple application or overlay of it. This is why any grad student can &quot;do&quot; Marxist or feminist or structuralist literary theory -- it&#039;s like using a cookie cutter -- but when they &quot;do&quot; theory, the results are almost always predictable and boring. For instance, the Harold Bloom of _The Anxiety of Influence_ is much more interesting, imo, than the polemical, hit-over-the-head-with-the-canon Bloom. _The Anxiety of Influence_ is basically useless as a literary theory that can be applied across the literary history board. But as a text, it&#039;s a fascinating albeit somewhat metaphysical read that brings out some interesting phenomena and observations related to individual poets and literary history.

Literary studies, perhaps, is a little more accepting of the &quot;meta&quot; level so I suppose it&#039;s possible to do some interesting work from a Mormon point of view. I just haven&#039;t been able to do it very well so far -- although I do have a few vague ideas about why the ending of Bulgakov&#039;s _The Master and Margarita_ from a Mormon perspective .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Nate makes a good point. I have tried to intersect my interests in literary theory and Mormon theology and have not had much success &#8212; at least not in using an explicit Mormon perspective in reading text by non-Mormons. Of course, most of the best literary criticism, imo, is written by people (not necessarily just academics) who have a very personal, idiosyncratic view of things that may be informed by their ideology, but isn&#8217;t a simple application or overlay of it. This is why any grad student can &#8220;do&#8221; Marxist or feminist or structuralist literary theory &#8212; it&#8217;s like using a cookie cutter &#8212; but when they &#8220;do&#8221; theory, the results are almost always predictable and boring. For instance, the Harold Bloom of _The Anxiety of Influence_ is much more interesting, imo, than the polemical, hit-over-the-head-with-the-canon Bloom. _The Anxiety of Influence_ is basically useless as a literary theory that can be applied across the literary history board. But as a text, it&#8217;s a fascinating albeit somewhat metaphysical read that brings out some interesting phenomena and observations related to individual poets and literary history.</p>
<p>Literary studies, perhaps, is a little more accepting of the &#8220;meta&#8221; level so I suppose it&#8217;s possible to do some interesting work from a Mormon point of view. I just haven&#8217;t been able to do it very well so far &#8212; although I do have a few vague ideas about why the ending of Bulgakov&#8217;s _The Master and Margarita_ from a Mormon perspective .</p>
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		<title>By: clark goble</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-is-church-doctrine-good-for/#comment-14767</link>
		<dc:creator>clark goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=411#comment-14767</guid>
		<description>While I think many scientists are somewhat ignorant of the philosophical underpinnings of their discipline, I think most have very significnat concerns about epistemology.  They may just not be that sophisticated in how they deal with it.  But every scientist does consider it.  (Indeed to a limited extent it is formally taugh via error bounds on measurement, on bayesian methods, and in courses on significant figures and statistics)

Of course I&#039;m the overly picky scientist type.  I can&#039;t speak to the economist or lawyer.  Literary theorists are in a class of their own, so don&#039;t get me started there.  (grin)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I think many scientists are somewhat ignorant of the philosophical underpinnings of their discipline, I think most have very significnat concerns about epistemology.  They may just not be that sophisticated in how they deal with it.  But every scientist does consider it.  (Indeed to a limited extent it is formally taugh via error bounds on measurement, on bayesian methods, and in courses on significant figures and statistics)</p>
<p>Of course I&#8217;m the overly picky scientist type.  I can&#8217;t speak to the economist or lawyer.  Literary theorists are in a class of their own, so don&#8217;t get me started there.  (grin)</p>
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		<title>By: William Morris</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-is-church-doctrine-good-for/#comment-14768</link>
		<dc:creator>William Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=411#comment-14768</guid>
		<description>You can make all the cracks you want, clark, but the truth is you love slumming with us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can make all the cracks you want, clark, but the truth is you love slumming with us.</p>
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		<title>By: clark goble</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-is-church-doctrine-good-for/#comment-14769</link>
		<dc:creator>clark goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=411#comment-14769</guid>
		<description>Well, yes.  

I was more thinking of literary theorists awareness of their foundations.  Even when they utilize philosophical positions, they often get them very, very wrong.  (i.e. literary types who read Deconstruction as basically an anything goes relativism)  Not all are like this, of course.  But enough are that discussions about foundations with literary theorists are always interesting...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, yes.  </p>
<p>I was more thinking of literary theorists awareness of their foundations.  Even when they utilize philosophical positions, they often get them very, very wrong.  (i.e. literary types who read Deconstruction as basically an anything goes relativism)  Not all are like this, of course.  But enough are that discussions about foundations with literary theorists are always interesting&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: William Morris</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-is-church-doctrine-good-for/#comment-14770</link>
		<dc:creator>William Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=411#comment-14770</guid>
		<description>Most definitely. 

It&#039;ll be interesting to see what direction literary studies takes now that the theoretical turn has fizzled out. More literary critics doing bad history? Probably.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most definitely. </p>
<p>It&#8217;ll be interesting to see what direction literary studies takes now that the theoretical turn has fizzled out. More literary critics doing bad history? Probably.</p>
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