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	<title>Comments on: What Disturbs Me About Dale-Era Boy Scouts of America</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-disturbs-me-about-dale-era-boy-scouts-of-america/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Gary Cooper</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-disturbs-me-about-dale-era-boy-scouts-of-america/#comment-15819</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Cooper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=195#comment-15819</guid>
		<description>This is my first time to post a comment to this fine site. Here is my question: Did the Scouts ever tell you not to read pornography? Not to molest children? Not to cheat on your taxes? Etc. My point here is that teaching to be morally straight does not mean dispensing a laundry list of don&#039;ts. Your scout leaders probably assumed that it was your parents&#039; duty to go into the details of chastity, which is certainly true. The fact that they never told you to specifically avoid homosexuality does not mean they are being dishonest when they say the Scout oath forbids sodomy, anymore than would be the case with child molestation and the other sins I mentioned above. I would be disturbed if the Scouts were to start going into the details of what to avoid sexually, as that is the role of parents and church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is my first time to post a comment to this fine site. Here is my question: Did the Scouts ever tell you not to read pornography? Not to molest children? Not to cheat on your taxes? Etc. My point here is that teaching to be morally straight does not mean dispensing a laundry list of don&#8217;ts. Your scout leaders probably assumed that it was your parents&#8217; duty to go into the details of chastity, which is certainly true. The fact that they never told you to specifically avoid homosexuality does not mean they are being dishonest when they say the Scout oath forbids sodomy, anymore than would be the case with child molestation and the other sins I mentioned above. I would be disturbed if the Scouts were to start going into the details of what to avoid sexually, as that is the role of parents and church.</p>
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		<title>By: andy</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-disturbs-me-about-dale-era-boy-scouts-of-america/#comment-15820</link>
		<dc:creator>andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=195#comment-15820</guid>
		<description>Kiami,
I am struck by your contention that you &quot;earned [your] Eagle Scout.&quot; In the Church, we all know that MOTHERS earn the Eagle Scout!!!!

Or at least in my case. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kiami,<br />
I am struck by your contention that you &#8220;earned [your] Eagle Scout.&#8221; In the Church, we all know that MOTHERS earn the Eagle Scout!!!!</p>
<p>Or at least in my case. :)</p>
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		<title>By: clark goble</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-disturbs-me-about-dale-era-boy-scouts-of-america/#comment-15821</link>
		<dc:creator>clark goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=195#comment-15821</guid>
		<description>Kaimi, perhaps your Scouting experience was different because (I assume) it was done within the church?  Isn&#039;t that a big difference?

As I understand it the Scouts were always quasi-religious.  While I can&#039;t speak to the development the last 50 years, Powell was rather explicit in his writings on the subject.

&quot;....We aim for the practice of Christianity in their everyday life and dealings, and not mearly the profession of theology on Sundays.... The co-operation of tiny sea insects has brought about the formation of coral islands. No enterprise is too big where there is goodwill and co-operation carrying it out. Every day we are turning away boys anxious to join the Movement, because we have no men or women to take them in hand. There is a vast reserve of loyal patriotism and Christian spirit lying dormant in our nation today, mainly because it sees no direct opportunity for expressing itself. Here in this joyous brotherhood there is a vast opportunity open to all in a happy work that shows the results under your hands and a work that is worth while because it gives every man his chance of service for his fellow-men and for God.&quot; - (Scouting For Boys, 1908)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kaimi, perhaps your Scouting experience was different because (I assume) it was done within the church?  Isn&#8217;t that a big difference?</p>
<p>As I understand it the Scouts were always quasi-religious.  While I can&#8217;t speak to the development the last 50 years, Powell was rather explicit in his writings on the subject.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;.We aim for the practice of Christianity in their everyday life and dealings, and not mearly the profession of theology on Sundays&#8230;. The co-operation of tiny sea insects has brought about the formation of coral islands. No enterprise is too big where there is goodwill and co-operation carrying it out. Every day we are turning away boys anxious to join the Movement, because we have no men or women to take them in hand. There is a vast reserve of loyal patriotism and Christian spirit lying dormant in our nation today, mainly because it sees no direct opportunity for expressing itself. Here in this joyous brotherhood there is a vast opportunity open to all in a happy work that shows the results under your hands and a work that is worth while because it gives every man his chance of service for his fellow-men and for God.&#8221; &#8211; (Scouting For Boys, 1908)</p>
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		<title>By: Nate</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-disturbs-me-about-dale-era-boy-scouts-of-america/#comment-15822</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=195#comment-15822</guid>
		<description>Kaimi: Is the conclusion of your complaint supposed to be that when the question of homosexuality&#039;s relationship to the Scouts&#039; concept of &quot;moraly strait&quot; IS explicitly raised that the State of New Jersey, rather than the Scouts, get to answer the question?  Could I require that the American Prospect hire Richard Posner as an editor on the ground that they didn&#039;t specify that they weren&#039;t standing for THAT kind of liberalism?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kaimi: Is the conclusion of your complaint supposed to be that when the question of homosexuality&#8217;s relationship to the Scouts&#8217; concept of &#8220;moraly strait&#8221; IS explicitly raised that the State of New Jersey, rather than the Scouts, get to answer the question?  Could I require that the American Prospect hire Richard Posner as an editor on the ground that they didn&#8217;t specify that they weren&#8217;t standing for THAT kind of liberalism?</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-disturbs-me-about-dale-era-boy-scouts-of-america/#comment-15823</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=195#comment-15823</guid>
		<description>Kaimi, 
what did you think they meant by &#039;morally straight&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kaimi,<br />
what did you think they meant by &#8216;morally straight&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Call</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-disturbs-me-about-dale-era-boy-scouts-of-america/#comment-15824</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Call</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=195#comment-15824</guid>
		<description>If Kaimi would have looked up &quot;morally straight&quot; in his Scout handbook, it would have said:

“To be a person of strong character, guide your life with honesty, purity, and justice. Respect and defend the rights of all people. Your relationships with others should be honest and open. Be clean in your speech and actions, and faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you follow as a Scout will help you become virtuous and self-reliant.” 

If he would have looked up &quot;clean&quot; he would see:

“A Scout is CLEAN. A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He chooses the company of those who live by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.

“You never need to be ashamed of dirt that will wash off. If you play hard and work hard you can’t help getting dirty. But when the game is over or the work is done, that kind of dirt disappears with soap and water.

“There’s another kind of dirt that won’t come off by washing. It is the kind that shows up in foul language and harmful thoughts.

“Swear words, profanity, and dirty stories are weapons that ridicule other people and hurt their feelings. The same is true of racial slurs and jokes making fun of ethnic groups or people with physical or mental limitations. A Scout knows there is no kindness or honor in such mean-spirited behavior. He avoids it in his own words and deeds. He defends those who are targets of insults.” 

Now I think that the Court was right in Dale, and that the Boy Scouts are not properly a &quot;public accommodation.&quot; But I agree with Kaimi that the Scouts&#039; brief overplayed the Scout oath and law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Kaimi would have looked up &#8220;morally straight&#8221; in his Scout handbook, it would have said:</p>
<p>“To be a person of strong character, guide your life with honesty, purity, and justice. Respect and defend the rights of all people. Your relationships with others should be honest and open. Be clean in your speech and actions, and faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you follow as a Scout will help you become virtuous and self-reliant.” </p>
<p>If he would have looked up &#8220;clean&#8221; he would see:</p>
<p>“A Scout is CLEAN. A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He chooses the company of those who live by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.</p>
<p>“You never need to be ashamed of dirt that will wash off. If you play hard and work hard you can’t help getting dirty. But when the game is over or the work is done, that kind of dirt disappears with soap and water.</p>
<p>“There’s another kind of dirt that won’t come off by washing. It is the kind that shows up in foul language and harmful thoughts.</p>
<p>“Swear words, profanity, and dirty stories are weapons that ridicule other people and hurt their feelings. The same is true of racial slurs and jokes making fun of ethnic groups or people with physical or mental limitations. A Scout knows there is no kindness or honor in such mean-spirited behavior. He avoids it in his own words and deeds. He defends those who are targets of insults.” </p>
<p>Now I think that the Court was right in Dale, and that the Boy Scouts are not properly a &#8220;public accommodation.&#8221; But I agree with Kaimi that the Scouts&#8217; brief overplayed the Scout oath and law.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Brown</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-disturbs-me-about-dale-era-boy-scouts-of-america/#comment-15825</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=195#comment-15825</guid>
		<description>Kaimi – I really think I have to agree with Gary on this one.  That the BSA doesn’t specify every particular behavior or practice that falls under its definition of “morally straight” doesn’t make its stand dishonest.

Andy – It isn’t always the mother who earns the Eagle Scout.  Sometimes it’s the local church leaders who aren’t about to let their troop’s reputation for turning out Eagles in droves fall by the wayside.  :&gt;

Clark – This isn’t technically relevant to your point, but I remember reading a salacious article a few years ago about Lord Baden Powell and his alleged homosexual tendencies toward boys, as evidenced by his voluminous personal diary entries on the subject.  Does anyone know anything about this?  Or have I just become the dupe of a certain strain of gay propaganda? 

Aaron B</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kaimi – I really think I have to agree with Gary on this one.  That the BSA doesn’t specify every particular behavior or practice that falls under its definition of “morally straight” doesn’t make its stand dishonest.</p>
<p>Andy – It isn’t always the mother who earns the Eagle Scout.  Sometimes it’s the local church leaders who aren’t about to let their troop’s reputation for turning out Eagles in droves fall by the wayside.  :></p>
<p>Clark – This isn’t technically relevant to your point, but I remember reading a salacious article a few years ago about Lord Baden Powell and his alleged homosexual tendencies toward boys, as evidenced by his voluminous personal diary entries on the subject.  Does anyone know anything about this?  Or have I just become the dupe of a certain strain of gay propaganda? </p>
<p>Aaron B</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-disturbs-me-about-dale-era-boy-scouts-of-america/#comment-15826</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=195#comment-15826</guid>
		<description>Greg: As I recall the Court in Dale DIDN&#039;T adopt the position that the BSA was not a public accomodation.  Indeed, I think that the NJ Sup. Ct. explicitly held that they WERE, which is -- of course -- the end of the matter.  I admitt, however, that it has been a while since I read the opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg: As I recall the Court in Dale DIDN&#8217;T adopt the position that the BSA was not a public accomodation.  Indeed, I think that the NJ Sup. Ct. explicitly held that they WERE, which is &#8212; of course &#8212; the end of the matter.  I admitt, however, that it has been a while since I read the opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-disturbs-me-about-dale-era-boy-scouts-of-america/#comment-15827</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=195#comment-15827</guid>
		<description>Greg,

You still have your Scout Handbook handy?  Wow, &quot;Be Prepared&quot;!!

I would point out that as a scout in Canada, instead of Eagle Scout you would earn the Chief Scout&#039;s Award, and the recipient was alternatively known as a Queen&#039;s Scout.  Let the innuendo begin!  Needless to say that Dale would have turned out differently in Canada.  As if anyone cares about the Gay Canuck Scouts.

Also, as an aside, who is this other Steve that&#039;s been posting on T&amp;S?  My style is gettin&#039; cramped.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg,</p>
<p>You still have your Scout Handbook handy?  Wow, &#8220;Be Prepared&#8221;!!</p>
<p>I would point out that as a scout in Canada, instead of Eagle Scout you would earn the Chief Scout&#8217;s Award, and the recipient was alternatively known as a Queen&#8217;s Scout.  Let the innuendo begin!  Needless to say that Dale would have turned out differently in Canada.  As if anyone cares about the Gay Canuck Scouts.</p>
<p>Also, as an aside, who is this other Steve that&#8217;s been posting on T&#038;S?  My style is gettin&#8217; cramped.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Call</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/what-disturbs-me-about-dale-era-boy-scouts-of-america/#comment-15828</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Call</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=195#comment-15828</guid>
		<description>Nate,
I should have been more precise: I think the ultimate result (but not the reasoning) in Dale was right because the NJ Sup Ct was just wrong that the BSA is a public accommodation. I also haven&#039;t read Dale in a while, but I remember having problems with the USSC majority&#039;s first amendment analysis, one of which is the substance of Kaimi&#039;s post. The Scouts are not the Republican Party, and Dale is not David Duke. (For non-politicos, the GOP was allowed, as a matter of free speech, to exclude ex-Klan-honcho Duke from running for office as a Repub.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate,<br />
I should have been more precise: I think the ultimate result (but not the reasoning) in Dale was right because the NJ Sup Ct was just wrong that the BSA is a public accommodation. I also haven&#8217;t read Dale in a while, but I remember having problems with the USSC majority&#8217;s first amendment analysis, one of which is the substance of Kaimi&#8217;s post. The Scouts are not the Republican Party, and Dale is not David Duke. (For non-politicos, the GOP was allowed, as a matter of free speech, to exclude ex-Klan-honcho Duke from running for office as a Repub.)</p>
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