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	<title>Comments on: Deserving One&#8217;s Wages</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/deserving-ones-wages/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: clark</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/deserving-ones-wages/#comment-15676</link>
		<dc:creator>clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=456#comment-15676</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve always wondered about this topic.  In one sense we are to consider ourselves unworthy and undeserving.  But that always appears to be relative to the things God has done for us.  i.e. his acts are so overwhelmingly valuable that our contributions are like a single penny put towards the national debt.

Yet when this issue is discussed, we tend to ignore scriptures like Luke 10:7 (oft quoted in the D&amp;C) where there appears to be a strong sense of &quot;deserving&quot; reward for ones labors.  Our theology of works also seems to move in that direction. 

Perhaps the difference is that our work is relative to those around us or the task at hand?  i.e. the issue is what we are comparing things to?

I admit that the approach some take (often more socialist views of Catholicism) makes me nervous.  The idea that we are all equally unworthy suggests that somehow the laggard and lazy *deserve* from *us* exactly the same as those who work hard to.  I just have a very hard time accepting that.  It just seems that rewards ought in some sense to be tied to production.  Now what we *do* with those rewards is certainly up from grabs, as our STQ topic dealt with.  But the reward bit just seems hard to swallow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always wondered about this topic.  In one sense we are to consider ourselves unworthy and undeserving.  But that always appears to be relative to the things God has done for us.  i.e. his acts are so overwhelmingly valuable that our contributions are like a single penny put towards the national debt.</p>
<p>Yet when this issue is discussed, we tend to ignore scriptures like Luke 10:7 (oft quoted in the D&#038;C) where there appears to be a strong sense of &#8220;deserving&#8221; reward for ones labors.  Our theology of works also seems to move in that direction. </p>
<p>Perhaps the difference is that our work is relative to those around us or the task at hand?  i.e. the issue is what we are comparing things to?</p>
<p>I admit that the approach some take (often more socialist views of Catholicism) makes me nervous.  The idea that we are all equally unworthy suggests that somehow the laggard and lazy *deserve* from *us* exactly the same as those who work hard to.  I just have a very hard time accepting that.  It just seems that rewards ought in some sense to be tied to production.  Now what we *do* with those rewards is certainly up from grabs, as our STQ topic dealt with.  But the reward bit just seems hard to swallow.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/deserving-ones-wages/#comment-15677</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=456#comment-15677</guid>
		<description>Nate,

Some endorse the popular &quot;the rich won&#039;t get to heaven&quot; doctrine.  Conversely, others feel strongly that God wants everyone, but especially them, to get rich, or that riches are somehow a greater test that God bestows on the truly righteous.  Paradoxically, many embrace both doctrines, feeling riches are morally tainted but seeking riches nonetheless.  I don&#039;t believe the Church has any &quot;official&quot; pronouncement either praising or proscribing wealth or the rich beyond general platitudes.  Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise.

More seriously, I&#039;m not sure it is productive to speculate on who &quot;deserves&quot; riches, anymore than who deserves the other arbitrary favors life bestows in a rather fickle fashion: good health, good looks, good parents, or talents of any description.  Any discussion along that path either invokes fallacious appeals to a preexistent fund of merit (&quot;I was born to rich parents because I was especially righteous in the Preexistence&quot;) or becomes an exercise in self-justification and pride (&quot;I&#039;m rich because I deserve it--let me count the ways&quot;).  I don&#039;t think any explanation invoking merit or the term &quot;deserves&quot; gets us very far.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate,</p>
<p>Some endorse the popular &#8220;the rich won&#8217;t get to heaven&#8221; doctrine.  Conversely, others feel strongly that God wants everyone, but especially them, to get rich, or that riches are somehow a greater test that God bestows on the truly righteous.  Paradoxically, many embrace both doctrines, feeling riches are morally tainted but seeking riches nonetheless.  I don&#8217;t believe the Church has any &#8220;official&#8221; pronouncement either praising or proscribing wealth or the rich beyond general platitudes.  Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise.</p>
<p>More seriously, I&#8217;m not sure it is productive to speculate on who &#8220;deserves&#8221; riches, anymore than who deserves the other arbitrary favors life bestows in a rather fickle fashion: good health, good looks, good parents, or talents of any description.  Any discussion along that path either invokes fallacious appeals to a preexistent fund of merit (&#8220;I was born to rich parents because I was especially righteous in the Preexistence&#8221;) or becomes an exercise in self-justification and pride (&#8220;I&#8217;m rich because I deserve it&#8211;let me count the ways&#8221;).  I don&#8217;t think any explanation invoking merit or the term &#8220;deserves&#8221; gets us very far.</p>
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		<title>By: lyle</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/deserving-ones-wages/#comment-15678</link>
		<dc:creator>lyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=456#comment-15678</guid>
		<description>Since only the Enemy is happy when others are unhappy, comparisons are constantly berated in GC, and Adam fell that all (wo)men might have joy...it stands to reason that meeting the expressed desires of others, which tends to make them happy, is thus a net goode; i.e. (s)he who provides the most happiness for others WINS.  In this sense, I think one can find some moral claim to worth/wages; as the labor theory of value (your #2?) doesn&#039;t work in light of God&#039;s assertion that we are unprofitable servants/even the dirt obeys more regularly than we do/he gives us the breath of life needed to live.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since only the Enemy is happy when others are unhappy, comparisons are constantly berated in GC, and Adam fell that all (wo)men might have joy&#8230;it stands to reason that meeting the expressed desires of others, which tends to make them happy, is thus a net goode; i.e. (s)he who provides the most happiness for others WINS.  In this sense, I think one can find some moral claim to worth/wages; as the labor theory of value (your #2?) doesn&#8217;t work in light of God&#8217;s assertion that we are unprofitable servants/even the dirt obeys more regularly than we do/he gives us the breath of life needed to live.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Call</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/deserving-ones-wages/#comment-15679</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Call</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=456#comment-15679</guid>
		<description>Nate,
Just to nitpick: Don&#039;t markets also reward those who *create* preferences? I am thinking of the old story about how when the town had one lawyer, he was poor, but when the second lawyer moved in, they both became rich. The underlying criticism of lawyers in this story is that they create a need or preference for their labors where none existed before.  Much of modern marketing is an attempt to create needs and wants where none existed before, and the market richly rewards success in doing so.

Anyway, here&#039;s a heartfelt little essay from the Columbia Law Review on how (as Nate puts it) we are all implicated in the moral decisions others make, and how that idea might apply to tort doctrine: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Matsuda.htm&quot;&gt;http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Matsuda.htm&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate,<br />
Just to nitpick: Don&#8217;t markets also reward those who *create* preferences? I am thinking of the old story about how when the town had one lawyer, he was poor, but when the second lawyer moved in, they both became rich. The underlying criticism of lawyers in this story is that they create a need or preference for their labors where none existed before.  Much of modern marketing is an attempt to create needs and wants where none existed before, and the market richly rewards success in doing so.</p>
<p>Anyway, here&#8217;s a heartfelt little essay from the Columbia Law Review on how (as Nate puts it) we are all implicated in the moral decisions others make, and how that idea might apply to tort doctrine: <a href="http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Matsuda.htm">http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Matsuda.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/deserving-ones-wages/#comment-15680</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=456#comment-15680</guid>
		<description>Greg: I think that you are essentially right, although I think that in practice it is often difficult to determine when entrepreneurs are creating desires and when they are simply overcoming information problems.  In theory, I think that there may be a problem of equating expressed preferences with &quot;real&quot; or &quot;actual&quot; desires.  On the otherhand, if you go far down that road it will become virtually impossible to draw conclusions about welfare levels based on voluntary transactions.  This seems like a rather untenable position, so I am stuck with trying to figure out what the significance of expressed preferences is.  (I am working right now on an essay on differing notions of voluntariness in contract law theory, so I am unusually tortured by these questions of late.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg: I think that you are essentially right, although I think that in practice it is often difficult to determine when entrepreneurs are creating desires and when they are simply overcoming information problems.  In theory, I think that there may be a problem of equating expressed preferences with &#8220;real&#8221; or &#8220;actual&#8221; desires.  On the otherhand, if you go far down that road it will become virtually impossible to draw conclusions about welfare levels based on voluntary transactions.  This seems like a rather untenable position, so I am stuck with trying to figure out what the significance of expressed preferences is.  (I am working right now on an essay on differing notions of voluntariness in contract law theory, so I am unusually tortured by these questions of late.)</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/deserving-ones-wages/#comment-15681</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=456#comment-15681</guid>
		<description>Lyle: I don&#039;t buy your argument and I suspect one of two things is going on.  Either we are equivocating about the word &quot;happiness.&quot;  For example, from a market perspective someone willing to pay for a prostitute inorder to committ adultery is &quot;happy.&quot;  The Book of Mormon, however, suggests that wickedness never was happiness.  Seems like we have different definitions of happiness.

Of course, one might unify one&#039;s theories of happiness and argue that the man hiring the prostitute is simply ignorant about his true interests and true happiness.  I think that undoubtedly true.  Perhaps he is simply improperly discounting the eternal consquences of his act.

BTW, in my law review note (&quot;Wagering on Religious Liberty,&quot; 116 Harv. L. Rev. 946), I made the somewhat quixotic argument that religious freedom reflected a constrained and proper discounting of the value of hellfire.  My fellow editors thought that the article was fun but bizarre.  Which is about right...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lyle: I don&#8217;t buy your argument and I suspect one of two things is going on.  Either we are equivocating about the word &#8220;happiness.&#8221;  For example, from a market perspective someone willing to pay for a prostitute inorder to committ adultery is &#8220;happy.&#8221;  The Book of Mormon, however, suggests that wickedness never was happiness.  Seems like we have different definitions of happiness.</p>
<p>Of course, one might unify one&#8217;s theories of happiness and argue that the man hiring the prostitute is simply ignorant about his true interests and true happiness.  I think that undoubtedly true.  Perhaps he is simply improperly discounting the eternal consquences of his act.</p>
<p>BTW, in my law review note (&#8220;Wagering on Religious Liberty,&#8221; 116 Harv. L. Rev. 946), I made the somewhat quixotic argument that religious freedom reflected a constrained and proper discounting of the value of hellfire.  My fellow editors thought that the article was fun but bizarre.  Which is about right&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/deserving-ones-wages/#comment-15682</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=456#comment-15682</guid>
		<description>Dave: I agree with much of what you say, but I don&#039;t think that we can escape the notion of desert when it comes to discussing wealth.  Suppose someone at your job embezzles all of the company&#039;s money and they can&#039;t pay you for your work.  Is this right or wrong?  Have you been hurt in a way that is morally meaningful?  We can&#039;t even begin to answer these sorts of questions without some notion of who deserves the company&#039;s money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave: I agree with much of what you say, but I don&#8217;t think that we can escape the notion of desert when it comes to discussing wealth.  Suppose someone at your job embezzles all of the company&#8217;s money and they can&#8217;t pay you for your work.  Is this right or wrong?  Have you been hurt in a way that is morally meaningful?  We can&#8217;t even begin to answer these sorts of questions without some notion of who deserves the company&#8217;s money.</p>
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		<title>By: lyle</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/deserving-ones-wages/#comment-15683</link>
		<dc:creator>lyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=456#comment-15683</guid>
		<description>So...what is the morality/efficiency/worth of being successful at:
1.  selling alcohol
2.  selling internet porn
3.  selling tobacco
4.  selling law review articles
5.  selling mormon theology, philosophy and legal books 
6.  selling a better product 
7.  selling a cheaper product

if these items meet the expressed needs/preferences of other...isnt&#039; there inherent value in providing moral agents with opportunities to exercise their agency?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So&#8230;what is the morality/efficiency/worth of being successful at:<br />
1.  selling alcohol<br />
2.  selling internet porn<br />
3.  selling tobacco<br />
4.  selling law review articles<br />
5.  selling mormon theology, philosophy and legal books<br />
6.  selling a better product<br />
7.  selling a cheaper product</p>
<p>if these items meet the expressed needs/preferences of other&#8230;isnt&#8217; there inherent value in providing moral agents with opportunities to exercise their agency?</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Caswell</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/deserving-ones-wages/#comment-15684</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Caswell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=456#comment-15684</guid>
		<description>So, this was started by a comment based on six-figure salaries... Does anyone want to define wealth for us here? Nate, you&#039;re the ring leader on this one. How much should one make before one starts pondering the &quot;deserve&quot; question here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, this was started by a comment based on six-figure salaries&#8230; Does anyone want to define wealth for us here? Nate, you&#8217;re the ring leader on this one. How much should one make before one starts pondering the &#8220;deserve&#8221; question here?</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/02/deserving-ones-wages/#comment-15685</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=456#comment-15685</guid>
		<description>Bob: The question seems inherent in the notion of property.  As soon as you own anything, you must face the issue of whether you deserve to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob: The question seems inherent in the notion of property.  As soon as you own anything, you must face the issue of whether you deserve to do so.</p>
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