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	<title>Comments on: Mormons, Polygamy and Gay Marriage</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/mormons-polygamy-and-gay-marriage/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/mormons-polygamy-and-gay-marriage/#comment-107112</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=159#comment-107112</guid>
		<description>Obviously, agreement with the Lawrence decision is a different matter entirely.  I don&#039;t understand how we managed to get centuries of constitutional law under our belt without taking the 4rth amendment seriously.  Obviously, arresting unmarried adults for a consensual sexual nonreproductive act in the privacy of their own home, is an &quot;unreasonable search and seizure&quot; under the 4th amendment.  We didn&#039;t need Lawrence&#039;s umpteen pages of moaning about the plight of gays to say enough is enough to that sort of intrusive criminal law!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously, agreement with the Lawrence decision is a different matter entirely.  I don&#8217;t understand how we managed to get centuries of constitutional law under our belt without taking the 4rth amendment seriously.  Obviously, arresting unmarried adults for a consensual sexual nonreproductive act in the privacy of their own home, is an &#8220;unreasonable search and seizure&#8221; under the 4th amendment.  We didn&#8217;t need Lawrence&#8217;s umpteen pages of moaning about the plight of gays to say enough is enough to that sort of intrusive criminal law!</p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/mormons-polygamy-and-gay-marriage/#comment-107111</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=159#comment-107111</guid>
		<description>&quot;And claiming that someone is eventually BORN gay requires the need for a space for gay people in the Salvation Plan.&quot;

Of course it doesn&#039;t.  People are born with all sorts of conditions that we don&#039;t expect will persist in the eternities.  That&#039;s part of the beauty of the resurrection.

There have been many definitions of marriage.  Two elements are common to all of them: (1) a union of man and woman (2) for life.

 In modern Western Cultures, we&#039;ve added elements (3) severable (meaning you can break the contract for life, in divorce) and (4) EXCLUSIVE, meaning that you can&#039;t form more than one marriage at the same time. Thus Polygamy doesn&#039;t even create a wrinkle in either of the two main elements. A plig man had two marriages.  The wives were not married to each other; it was not all one marriage.

I have a hard time crediting the good faith of Mormons who claim to honor our ancestors by supporting ssm.  Our ancestors were persecuted and jailed for their temple marriages, many of which were effected before the law was even passed to make them illegal.  They were systematically persecuted.  Wives went to jail for refusing to testify against their husbands.  They did not ask or want the government to recognize their socially deviant relationships. They simply wanted to be left alone.

I don&#039;t consider a mormon&#039;s support for ssm treason against the church leadership.  They&#039;ve made a suggestion; you can follow or ignore it.  But support for ssm is certainly a betrayal of the community.  We all know very well that passage of ssm laws will bring upon us the same sorts of forces that our polygamous ancestors faced, to coerce us to sollemnize ssm in the temples. The antionwide ssm movement is based on the premise that those who refuse to recognize ssm are the moral equivalent of the White Supremacists in Loving v. Virginia.  And the Bob Jones case makes clear that the Supreme Court will wink at &quot;whatever it takes&quot; to pressure White Supremacists into changing their doctrines.

If you don&#039;t like the doctrine of the church, then take it up directly with God and the brethren.  Don&#039;t walz behind our backs and promote government measures to coerce the church into making the doctrinal changes you desire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And claiming that someone is eventually BORN gay requires the need for a space for gay people in the Salvation Plan.&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course it doesn&#8217;t.  People are born with all sorts of conditions that we don&#8217;t expect will persist in the eternities.  That&#8217;s part of the beauty of the resurrection.</p>
<p>There have been many definitions of marriage.  Two elements are common to all of them: (1) a union of man and woman (2) for life.</p>
<p> In modern Western Cultures, we&#8217;ve added elements (3) severable (meaning you can break the contract for life, in divorce) and (4) EXCLUSIVE, meaning that you can&#8217;t form more than one marriage at the same time. Thus Polygamy doesn&#8217;t even create a wrinkle in either of the two main elements. A plig man had two marriages.  The wives were not married to each other; it was not all one marriage.</p>
<p>I have a hard time crediting the good faith of Mormons who claim to honor our ancestors by supporting ssm.  Our ancestors were persecuted and jailed for their temple marriages, many of which were effected before the law was even passed to make them illegal.  They were systematically persecuted.  Wives went to jail for refusing to testify against their husbands.  They did not ask or want the government to recognize their socially deviant relationships. They simply wanted to be left alone.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t consider a mormon&#8217;s support for ssm treason against the church leadership.  They&#8217;ve made a suggestion; you can follow or ignore it.  But support for ssm is certainly a betrayal of the community.  We all know very well that passage of ssm laws will bring upon us the same sorts of forces that our polygamous ancestors faced, to coerce us to sollemnize ssm in the temples. The antionwide ssm movement is based on the premise that those who refuse to recognize ssm are the moral equivalent of the White Supremacists in Loving v. Virginia.  And the Bob Jones case makes clear that the Supreme Court will wink at &#8220;whatever it takes&#8221; to pressure White Supremacists into changing their doctrines.</p>
<p>If you don&#8217;t like the doctrine of the church, then take it up directly with God and the brethren.  Don&#8217;t walz behind our backs and promote government measures to coerce the church into making the doctrinal changes you desire.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric S.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/mormons-polygamy-and-gay-marriage/#comment-84558</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=159#comment-84558</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t feed the trolls.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t feed the trolls.</p>
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		<title>By: Kingsley</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/mormons-polygamy-and-gay-marriage/#comment-84557</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=159#comment-84557</guid>
		<description>Meaning that in each of your examples, the husband-wife relationship &lt;i&gt;and the culture it entails&lt;/i&gt; are the central premise of the arrangement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meaning that in each of your examples, the husband-wife relationship <i>and the culture it entails</i> are the central premise of the arrangement.</p>
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		<title>By: Kingsley</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/mormons-polygamy-and-gay-marriage/#comment-84556</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=159#comment-84556</guid>
		<description>Nick, your stereotypes re African Americans, Latinos, etc., are still universes removed from gay marriage. A broken home or one with lots of aunts and uncles and grandmas and cousins running around are hardly spot-on analogies!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick, your stereotypes re African Americans, Latinos, etc., are still universes removed from gay marriage. A broken home or one with lots of aunts and uncles and grandmas and cousins running around are hardly spot-on analogies!</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/mormons-polygamy-and-gay-marriage/#comment-84555</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=159#comment-84555</guid>
		<description>An African American male would most likely explain how a traditional family is a single working mother with a couple of children?  Wow Nick...the presumptuousness of that statement is staggering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An African American male would most likely explain how a traditional family is a single working mother with a couple of children?  Wow Nick&#8230;the presumptuousness of that statement is staggering.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/mormons-polygamy-and-gay-marriage/#comment-84550</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2005 06:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=159#comment-84550</guid>
		<description>&quot;...the issue of Gay Marriage is an issue that must be looked at from outside the box.&quot;

I wonder if we&#039;re willing to look far enough outside of our own little mortal box to find out what Deity has to say about gay marraige.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;the issue of Gay Marriage is an issue that must be looked at from outside the box.&#8221;</p>
<p>I wonder if we&#8217;re willing to look far enough outside of our own little mortal box to find out what Deity has to say about gay marraige.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Falvo</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/mormons-polygamy-and-gay-marriage/#comment-84549</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Falvo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2005 05:33:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=159#comment-84549</guid>
		<description>No matter what your moral or religious stand may be (yes, there is a difference), the issue of Gay Marriage is an issue that must be looked at from outside the box. The first thing one must realize is that Gay Marriage is legal in the United States of America. All states MUST honor a union established in the State of Massachusetts, Full Faith and Credit. The issue of Statesâ€™ Rights is null and void here due to the wording of the Federal Constitution. Now, if you choose to take the moral or religious position that the Civil Union or Marriage of homosexuals is immoral, go right ahead. Your moral or religious beliefs shall not impede on anotherâ€™s moral or religious beliefs, nor will someone elseâ€™s personal moral or religious beliefs impede on your moral or religious beliefs. The Civil Union or Marriage of other people has NO DIRECT digression of your moral or religious beliefs. The difference between a legal Civil Union or Marriage, as designated by Federal, State, or Local Law, and that of a moral or religious marriage is that the preceding is based in Law, not theology. To incorporate language in Federal, State, or Local Law, that states marriage is only between one man and one woman is clearly a violation of personal rights by being an overt case of sexual discrimination. In the specific case of those who believe in the viability of and the moral or religious accessibility of Polygamy, it is then religious discrimination. The discrimination of a person because of their sexual orientation is the same as the discrimination of a person because of the color of their skin, the creed they profess, or their gender. 

     If you choose to take the position that Gay Marriage somehow erodes the moral tradition of the United States of America, I challenge you to look back over the history of marriage in this nation. A family consisting of one father and one mother and their children is not the traditional American family. This nation has never had a specific â€œtraditionalâ€? family structure; to have had one would have been a slap in the face to our multi-cultural, multi-religious, and multi-ethnic background. We live in a republic, and therefore, we live in a nation that is able to be molded and altered as needed to promote a political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them. Ask every citizen of this great country what they consider a traditional family, and you will receive a myriad of responses. An African American male would most likely explain how a traditional family is a single working mother with a couple of children. At the same time a Mexican American would most likely explain that a traditional family is composed of several grandparents, aunts and uncles, nieces and nephews, a mother and father, and several siblings. Most Caucasian Americans would explain the traditional family in the eyes of the oppressive Anglo-Saxon Protestant majority; a dominant father and submissive mother with a couple children. To accept that view as the only valid and moral option is to succumb to the oppression that has not only restricted the economic, political, and creative growth of the United States of America, but also the spiritual growth of our great nation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No matter what your moral or religious stand may be (yes, there is a difference), the issue of Gay Marriage is an issue that must be looked at from outside the box. The first thing one must realize is that Gay Marriage is legal in the United States of America. All states MUST honor a union established in the State of Massachusetts, Full Faith and Credit. The issue of Statesâ€™ Rights is null and void here due to the wording of the Federal Constitution. Now, if you choose to take the moral or religious position that the Civil Union or Marriage of homosexuals is immoral, go right ahead. Your moral or religious beliefs shall not impede on anotherâ€™s moral or religious beliefs, nor will someone elseâ€™s personal moral or religious beliefs impede on your moral or religious beliefs. The Civil Union or Marriage of other people has NO DIRECT digression of your moral or religious beliefs. The difference between a legal Civil Union or Marriage, as designated by Federal, State, or Local Law, and that of a moral or religious marriage is that the preceding is based in Law, not theology. To incorporate language in Federal, State, or Local Law, that states marriage is only between one man and one woman is clearly a violation of personal rights by being an overt case of sexual discrimination. In the specific case of those who believe in the viability of and the moral or religious accessibility of Polygamy, it is then religious discrimination. The discrimination of a person because of their sexual orientation is the same as the discrimination of a person because of the color of their skin, the creed they profess, or their gender. </p>
<p>     If you choose to take the position that Gay Marriage somehow erodes the moral tradition of the United States of America, I challenge you to look back over the history of marriage in this nation. A family consisting of one father and one mother and their children is not the traditional American family. This nation has never had a specific â€œtraditionalâ€? family structure; to have had one would have been a slap in the face to our multi-cultural, multi-religious, and multi-ethnic background. We live in a republic, and therefore, we live in a nation that is able to be molded and altered as needed to promote a political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them. Ask every citizen of this great country what they consider a traditional family, and you will receive a myriad of responses. An African American male would most likely explain how a traditional family is a single working mother with a couple of children. At the same time a Mexican American would most likely explain that a traditional family is composed of several grandparents, aunts and uncles, nieces and nephews, a mother and father, and several siblings. Most Caucasian Americans would explain the traditional family in the eyes of the oppressive Anglo-Saxon Protestant majority; a dominant father and submissive mother with a couple children. To accept that view as the only valid and moral option is to succumb to the oppression that has not only restricted the economic, political, and creative growth of the United States of America, but also the spiritual growth of our great nation.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/mormons-polygamy-and-gay-marriage/#comment-42817</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=159#comment-42817</guid>
		<description>Ah, Derren, you know my eternal destination all too well.  ;)

For the record, I believe I will be having those dialogues, with people that Derren would now label as gay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, Derren, you know my eternal destination all too well.  ;)</p>
<p>For the record, I believe I will be having those dialogues, with people that Derren would now label as gay.</p>
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		<title>By: Derren</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/mormons-polygamy-and-gay-marriage/#comment-41050</link>
		<dc:creator>Derren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=159#comment-41050</guid>
		<description>Adam, thanks again for considering me ill, affected of a desease or some &#039;&#039;sort of things that is not necessarily part of my eternal destiny&#039;&#039;. Again your statement is arrogant and  leaves no space for discussion. As usual you miss my point. For the record, your sense of humour needs a serious boost man, you don&#039;t wanna live your eternity unable to dialogue with all the gay people that will be around you...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam, thanks again for considering me ill, affected of a desease or some &#8221;sort of things that is not necessarily part of my eternal destiny&#8221;. Again your statement is arrogant and  leaves no space for discussion. As usual you miss my point. For the record, your sense of humour needs a serious boost man, you don&#8217;t wanna live your eternity unable to dialogue with all the gay people that will be around you&#8230;</p>
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