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	<title>Comments on: Models of Women and Priesthood</title>
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	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Christian Y. Cardall (TSM)</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/models-of-women-and-priesthood/#comment-63378</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian Y. Cardall (TSM)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=202#comment-63378</guid>
		<description>Nate, help me with my simpleton understanding here. I&#039;m getting the impression (undoubtedly from careless reading) that here you&#039;re saying there&#039;s not enough mythos and that on your post about Toscano you were discounting the importance of mythos. Continuity is a theme in both posts, but...

My speculations on how it would come about were &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php?p=2055#comment-54329&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php?p=2055#comment-54507&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; on the Toscano thread. In a nutshell: It seems to me a revelation in some fashion by, of, or from Heavenly Mother would supply the needed mythos or narrative or whatever, in the same way the First Vision narratives helped Joseph in the wake of the Kirtland apostasy and (I gather by osmosis) to consolidate notions of authority around the turn of the century. But since big revelation only comes when sought, and is not likely on anyone&#039;s radar screens, such an event could only result from considerable internal or external pressure putting it on the radar screen of a prophet who&#039;s sufficiently open.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate, help me with my simpleton understanding here. I&#8217;m getting the impression (undoubtedly from careless reading) that here you&#8217;re saying there&#8217;s not enough mythos and that on your post about Toscano you were discounting the importance of mythos. Continuity is a theme in both posts, but&#8230;</p>
<p>My speculations on how it would come about were <a href="http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php?p=2055#comment-54329">here</a> and <a href="http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php?p=2055#comment-54507">here</a> on the Toscano thread. In a nutshell: It seems to me a revelation in some fashion by, of, or from Heavenly Mother would supply the needed mythos or narrative or whatever, in the same way the First Vision narratives helped Joseph in the wake of the Kirtland apostasy and (I gather by osmosis) to consolidate notions of authority around the turn of the century. But since big revelation only comes when sought, and is not likely on anyone&#8217;s radar screens, such an event could only result from considerable internal or external pressure putting it on the radar screen of a prophet who&#8217;s sufficiently open.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde Welch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/models-of-women-and-priesthood/#comment-63362</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=202#comment-63362</guid>
		<description>Jed, by the same token you can have accountability and mutual duty and still not have horizontality: for example, would-be absolutist kingship in England theorized the relationship between sovereign and subject in this way. 

I understand what you&#039;re saying, though, and I agree with you--but I still don&#039;t think that&#039;s an adequate description of what emerges.  From the Proclamation, perhaps, but not from the temple. (And again, this is not to reject the temple or its teachings--in fact, the possibility that there is indeed a hierarchy of the genders must be a live possibility for the believer.) (Also, I appreciate and fully understand--and share!--the impulse to interpret the endowment as you do.)  I&#039;ll take your raincheck on that celestial discussion! (Although I&#039;m hoping that then it won&#039;t be necessary.)

It&#039;s sort of too bad that we can&#039;t discuss these things more openly; there&#039;s nobody in my ward who would ever want to talk about this with me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jed, by the same token you can have accountability and mutual duty and still not have horizontality: for example, would-be absolutist kingship in England theorized the relationship between sovereign and subject in this way. </p>
<p>I understand what you&#8217;re saying, though, and I agree with you&#8211;but I still don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s an adequate description of what emerges.  From the Proclamation, perhaps, but not from the temple. (And again, this is not to reject the temple or its teachings&#8211;in fact, the possibility that there is indeed a hierarchy of the genders must be a live possibility for the believer.) (Also, I appreciate and fully understand&#8211;and share!&#8211;the impulse to interpret the endowment as you do.)  I&#8217;ll take your raincheck on that celestial discussion! (Although I&#8217;m hoping that then it won&#8217;t be necessary.)</p>
<p>It&#8217;s sort of too bad that we can&#8217;t discuss these things more openly; there&#8217;s nobody in my ward who would ever want to talk about this with me.</p>
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		<title>By: Jed</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/models-of-women-and-priesthood/#comment-63348</link>
		<dc:creator>Jed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2005 05:31:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=202#comment-63348</guid>
		<description>Rosalynde: To say a relationship is horizontal is not to say its constituant parts are not accountable to one another. You can have accountability and not have verticality. Thinking in terms of duties and spheres does does not imply verticality either.

We may have to consign further discussion to a future life or some celestial room somewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rosalynde: To say a relationship is horizontal is not to say its constituant parts are not accountable to one another. You can have accountability and not have verticality. Thinking in terms of duties and spheres does does not imply verticality either.</p>
<p>We may have to consign further discussion to a future life or some celestial room somewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/models-of-women-and-priesthood/#comment-63344</link>
		<dc:creator>annegb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2005 04:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=202#comment-63344</guid>
		<description>Well...not always completely deeply unsatisfying.  Just sometimes.  Sometimes pretty satisfying...even when you&#039;re, as my daughter puts it, in your golden years.  :)

But I&#039;ve never bought the idea that motherhood equals equality.  While I don&#039;t long for, or even want the priesthood, or even other women to have it, I&#039;m equal, even superior, arrogantly so, because I just am.  But I don&#039;t know why.  And I don&#039;t know why that bothers men more than women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well&#8230;not always completely deeply unsatisfying.  Just sometimes.  Sometimes pretty satisfying&#8230;even when you&#8217;re, as my daughter puts it, in your golden years.  :)</p>
<p>But I&#8217;ve never bought the idea that motherhood equals equality.  While I don&#8217;t long for, or even want the priesthood, or even other women to have it, I&#8217;m equal, even superior, arrogantly so, because I just am.  But I don&#8217;t know why.  And I don&#8217;t know why that bothers men more than women.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde Welch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/models-of-women-and-priesthood/#comment-63318</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:32:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=202#comment-63318</guid>
		<description>Well, Nate, I must prudently disclaim having given this a lot of thought!  Like you, I see nothing particularly compelling in the vision of boy and girl deacons sitting beside each other on the front row of the chapel. There are a number of priesthood offices that we don&#039;t currently utilize (pastors, evangelists)--perhaps these could be organized into female quorums, with discrete responsibilities. Perhaps the male priesthood would retain responsibility for ordinances, and the female for leadership--or vice versa. Or there could be two deacons quorums, etc, with rotating responsibilities. Or we could &quot;start from scratch,&quot; and the prophet would reveal new offices for the female priesthood. I think there are a number of ways it *could* play out--though I&#039;m not anticipating that it will, or suggesting that it should.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Nate, I must prudently disclaim having given this a lot of thought!  Like you, I see nothing particularly compelling in the vision of boy and girl deacons sitting beside each other on the front row of the chapel. There are a number of priesthood offices that we don&#8217;t currently utilize (pastors, evangelists)&#8211;perhaps these could be organized into female quorums, with discrete responsibilities. Perhaps the male priesthood would retain responsibility for ordinances, and the female for leadership&#8211;or vice versa. Or there could be two deacons quorums, etc, with rotating responsibilities. Or we could &#8220;start from scratch,&#8221; and the prophet would reveal new offices for the female priesthood. I think there are a number of ways it *could* play out&#8211;though I&#8217;m not anticipating that it will, or suggesting that it should.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/models-of-women-and-priesthood/#comment-63316</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:21:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=202#comment-63316</guid>
		<description>Rosalynde: Would the quorum&#039;s be identified with seperate priesthood offices?  Now we have quorums of deacons, teachers, priests, elders, high priests, seventies, and apostles.  Would holders of a the priesthood of ___________ (Eve, Deborah, Sariah, Eliz R. Snow, ?) have their own priesthood offices (what would they be?) or simply female versions of male offices, ie deaconesses, teachers, priestesses, crones, high priestesses, apostles?  Thinking about the issue purely in terms of gender equality misses the point, not because gender equality is unimportant or illegitimate, but because it is two mythically thin to get the job done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rosalynde: Would the quorum&#8217;s be identified with seperate priesthood offices?  Now we have quorums of deacons, teachers, priests, elders, high priests, seventies, and apostles.  Would holders of a the priesthood of ___________ (Eve, Deborah, Sariah, Eliz R. Snow, ?) have their own priesthood offices (what would they be?) or simply female versions of male offices, ie deaconesses, teachers, priestesses, crones, high priestesses, apostles?  Thinking about the issue purely in terms of gender equality misses the point, not because gender equality is unimportant or illegitimate, but because it is two mythically thin to get the job done.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde Welch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/models-of-women-and-priesthood/#comment-63315</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=202#comment-63315</guid>
		<description>Jed, I&#039;ve never been as upset with the new manuals as some others have (though I still dislike them for other reasons)--in part because I&#039;m not one who responds emotionally to identification with &quot;women&#039;s voices,&quot; though I understand that for many others this is important. It&#039;s interesting to think of it as a move toward a female idea of priesthood.

As for the temple: I love the temple, I am richly fed the liminal experience it offers, I&#039;m thrilled by its ancient roots, I attend whenever I can (still not often enough). But I simply must strongly disagree that the priesthood order described therein &quot;organizes horizontally rather than the vertical space in feminism critiques of male power.&quot; It&#039;s wonderful that women and men are both there, and the ways in which the genders interact is highly significant. But it is not horizontal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jed, I&#8217;ve never been as upset with the new manuals as some others have (though I still dislike them for other reasons)&#8211;in part because I&#8217;m not one who responds emotionally to identification with &#8220;women&#8217;s voices,&#8221; though I understand that for many others this is important. It&#8217;s interesting to think of it as a move toward a female idea of priesthood.</p>
<p>As for the temple: I love the temple, I am richly fed the liminal experience it offers, I&#8217;m thrilled by its ancient roots, I attend whenever I can (still not often enough). But I simply must strongly disagree that the priesthood order described therein &#8220;organizes horizontally rather than the vertical space in feminism critiques of male power.&#8221; It&#8217;s wonderful that women and men are both there, and the ways in which the genders interact is highly significant. But it is not horizontal.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde Welch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/models-of-women-and-priesthood/#comment-63314</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=202#comment-63314</guid>
		<description>Nate, perhaps I wasn&#039;t clear: I agree completely that revelation generally *doesn&#039;t* start from scratch. What I&#039;m arguing is that occasionally it may have to. 

I agree on the need for what you call a &quot;female priesthood myth,&quot; if there is ever to be a female priesthood: my point is that we don&#039;t have such a thing within the Restoration tradition. I also share your distaste for option (2)--which, apart from its blandness, would be very, very costly in social terms. (Incidentally, I&#039;ve always imagined that if there were a female priesthood, it would operate in separate quorums, thus allowing for a continued gender-identification which I think is important and desirable. Not that I&#039;m advocating this (my standard disclaimer.))</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate, perhaps I wasn&#8217;t clear: I agree completely that revelation generally *doesn&#8217;t* start from scratch. What I&#8217;m arguing is that occasionally it may have to. </p>
<p>I agree on the need for what you call a &#8220;female priesthood myth,&#8221; if there is ever to be a female priesthood: my point is that we don&#8217;t have such a thing within the Restoration tradition. I also share your distaste for option (2)&#8211;which, apart from its blandness, would be very, very costly in social terms. (Incidentally, I&#8217;ve always imagined that if there were a female priesthood, it would operate in separate quorums, thus allowing for a continued gender-identification which I think is important and desirable. Not that I&#8217;m advocating this (my standard disclaimer.))</p>
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		<title>By: Jed</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/models-of-women-and-priesthood/#comment-63310</link>
		<dc:creator>Jed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=202#comment-63310</guid>
		<description>Nate: &quot;Rather, it seems more productive to think of it as being a single example of larger category. It is that category that I think we should focus on.&quot;

For me that category is the &quot;order of the priesthood,&quot; a category that includes both men and women, and is deeply implicated in our temple ceremonies. Men and women both have place in the order of the priesthood. They occupy a different space within the order. The order organizes horizontally rather than the vertical space in feminism critiques of male power.

Rosalynde: &quot;Finally, we may need to consider the possibility that occasionally our own theology does not provide the mythic resources necessary for forward movement.&quot;

Do you find any cosmic signficicance in the correlation of priesthood and Relief Society manuals beginning with the Brigham Young manual? I think the change may show there are mythic resources available for &quot;mobilizing women’s capacities in productive ways,&quot; as you say. The manual change may be read as a knock against women--as another instance where women&#039;s own voice is removed or marginalized. In another sense, though, the change empowers women, allowing them access to priesthood, drawing them further into the priesthood order, putting them squarely in position to teach their priesthood-bearing husbands as they study the lessons together---in short, to influence priesthood. I don&#039;t want to read too far into this, but I think the mythos is more flexible than we might imagine, starting with the temple as the seedbed of possibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate: &#8220;Rather, it seems more productive to think of it as being a single example of larger category. It is that category that I think we should focus on.&#8221;</p>
<p>For me that category is the &#8220;order of the priesthood,&#8221; a category that includes both men and women, and is deeply implicated in our temple ceremonies. Men and women both have place in the order of the priesthood. They occupy a different space within the order. The order organizes horizontally rather than the vertical space in feminism critiques of male power.</p>
<p>Rosalynde: &#8220;Finally, we may need to consider the possibility that occasionally our own theology does not provide the mythic resources necessary for forward movement.&#8221;</p>
<p>Do you find any cosmic signficicance in the correlation of priesthood and Relief Society manuals beginning with the Brigham Young manual? I think the change may show there are mythic resources available for &#8220;mobilizing women’s capacities in productive ways,&#8221; as you say. The manual change may be read as a knock against women&#8211;as another instance where women&#8217;s own voice is removed or marginalized. In another sense, though, the change empowers women, allowing them access to priesthood, drawing them further into the priesthood order, putting them squarely in position to teach their priesthood-bearing husbands as they study the lessons together&#8212;in short, to influence priesthood. I don&#8217;t want to read too far into this, but I think the mythos is more flexible than we might imagine, starting with the temple as the seedbed of possibility.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/models-of-women-and-priesthood/#comment-63308</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:01:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=202#comment-63308</guid>
		<description>Rosalynde: I am not sure that revelation always starts from scratch.  Tracing out the idea of the Melchezidek priesthood in the scriptures (D&amp;C --&gt; Hebrews --&gt; Genesis) is really interesting on this point.  Perhaps you are right about the decline of male priesthood narratives, but I do think that you will need some sort of female priesthood myth.  Without it, priesthood will be transformed entirely into either (1) some generic notion of Christian service; or (2) mere access to administrative control, in other words another liberal right in a liberal society.  If either of those things happen, then we will have almost entirely lost mythos revealed by Joseph Smith in &quot;The Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood.&quot;  I would be happy to see a revelation announcing priesthood for women, but I hope that it would not leave us with a mythless equality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rosalynde: I am not sure that revelation always starts from scratch.  Tracing out the idea of the Melchezidek priesthood in the scriptures (D&#038;C &#8211;> Hebrews &#8211;> Genesis) is really interesting on this point.  Perhaps you are right about the decline of male priesthood narratives, but I do think that you will need some sort of female priesthood myth.  Without it, priesthood will be transformed entirely into either (1) some generic notion of Christian service; or (2) mere access to administrative control, in other words another liberal right in a liberal society.  If either of those things happen, then we will have almost entirely lost mythos revealed by Joseph Smith in &#8220;The Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood.&#8221;  I would be happy to see a revelation announcing priesthood for women, but I hope that it would not leave us with a mythless equality.</p>
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